The Members convened were:

The Honourable Senators

AdlerAl ZaibakArnotAtaullahjanAucoinAudetteBattersBernardBlackBoehmBoudreauBureyBussonCardozoCarignanClementCormierCotterCoyleCuznerDagenaisDalphondDaskoDeacon (Nova Scotia)Deacon (Ontario)DowneDuncanForestFrancisGagnéGerbaGignacGoldGreenwoodHarderHousakosLaBoucane-BensonLoffredaMacAdamMacDonaldManningMartinMassicotteMcBeanMcCallumMcNairMcPhedranMégieMiville-DechêneMoncionMoodieMoreauMuggliOslerOudarPatePattersonPetitclercPettenPlettProsperQuinnRavaliaRichardsRinguetteRossSaint-GermainSeidmanSeniorSimonsSmithSorensenTannasVaroneVernerWallinWells (Alberta)Wells (Newfoundland and Labrador)WhiteWooYouanceYussuff

The Members in attendance to business were:

The Honourable Senators

AdlerAl ZaibakArnotAtaullahjanAucoinAudetteBattersBernardBlackBoehmBoudreauBureyBussonCardozoCarignanClementCormierCotterCoyleCuznerDagenaisDalphondDaskoDeacon (Nova Scotia)Deacon (Ontario)DowneDuncanForestFrancisGagnéGerbaGignacGoldGreenwoodHarderHousakosLaBoucane-BensonLoffredaMacAdamMacDonaldManningMartinMassicotteMcBeanMcCallumMcNairMcPhedranMégieMiville-DechêneMoncionMoodieMoreauMuggliOslerOudarPatePattersonPetitclercPettenPlettProsperQuinnRavaliaRichardsRinguetteRossSaint-GermainSeidmanSeniorSimonsSmithSorensenTannasVaroneVernerWallinWells (Alberta)Wells (Newfoundland and Labrador)WhiteWooYouanceYussuff

The first list records senators present in the Senate Chamber during the course of the sitting.

An asterisk in the second list indicates a senator who, while not present during the sitting, was in attendance to business, as defined in subsections 8(2) and (3) of the Senators Attendance Policy.

PRAYERS

Senators’ Statements

Some Honourable Senators made statements.

Question Period

The Senate proceeded to Question Period.

Orders of the Day

Pursuant to the order adopted December 7, 2021, the Honourable Senator LaBoucane-Benson informed the Senate that Question Period with the Honourable Gary Anandasangaree, P.C., M.P., Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, will take place on Tuesday, November 26, 2024, at 4:45 p.m.

Government Business

Reports of Committees – Other

Orders No. 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 26 and 27 were called and postponed until the next sitting.

Motions

Orders No. 1, 132, 167 and 172 were called and postponed until the next sitting.

o o o

The Honourable Senator LaBoucane-Benson moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Gold, P.C.:

That the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance be authorized to examine and report upon the expenditures set out in the Supplementary Estimates (B) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2025;

That, for the purpose of this study, the committee have the power to meet, even though the Senate may then be sitting or adjourned, and that rules 12-18(1) and 12-18(2) be suspended in relation thereto; and

That the committee be permitted, notwithstanding usual practices, to deposit its report with the Clerk of the Senate, if the Senate is not then sitting, and that the report be deemed to have been tabled in the Senate.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

Inquiries

Orders No. 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 were called and postponed until the next sitting.

Other Business

Ordered, That motion No. 236 standing in the name of the Honourable Senator Gold, P.C., on the Notice Paper be brought forward.

The Honourable Senator Gold, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator LaBoucane-Benson:

That the Senate:

(a)salute the contribution of the Honourable Irwin Cotler, P.C., to the defence of human rights and the fight against racism and anti-Semitism;

(b)recall his political contribution as Attorney General and Minister of Justice from 2003 to 2006; and

(c)condemn the death threats against him orchestrated by agents of a foreign regime.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

Senate Public Bills – Third Reading

Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.

SPEAKER'S RULING

Honourable senators, I am prepared to rule on the point of order raised by Senator Carignan on October 24, 2024, in relation to Bill S-230, An Act to amend the Corrections and Conditional Release Act. The concern relates to whether the bill requires a Royal Recommendation. If it does, the bill cannot originate in the Senate. It would, instead, have to start in the House of Commons, and be recommended to that house by the Governor General.

The issue of the Royal Recommendation has been reviewed in detail recently, both during consideration of this point of order and in the one concerning Bill S-15. Arguments on the point of order concerning Bill S-15 were heard on September 25 and 26, and a ruling delivered, and sustained by the Senate, on October 2. Rather than repeating the detailed background on the Royal Recommendation, I encourage colleagues to review the relevant pages of the Debates of the Senate. Honourable senators will also be interested in reading the analysis of related issues found at pages 152 to 158 of Senate Procedure in Practice, including the quotes from the ruling of February 24, 2009, outlining many of the key factors guiding analysis of this topic.

For background on this particular point of order, I encourage colleagues to review the arguments presented by Senator Carignan, Senator Pate, who is the sponsor of Bill S-230, as well as other colleagues. I should also note that much of the commentary presented during argument on the point of order was informed by the analysis of the bill prepared by the Parliamentary Budget Officer, at the request of the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs. The online version of the committee’s twenty-ninth report, dealing with Bill S-230, contains a link to the Parliamentary Budget Officer’s report.

Senator Carignan identified three key points of concern. First, he argued that clause 4 of Bill S-230, which would require that the transfer of detained individuals to a hospital be authorized in certain circumstances, could require new expenses to be effective. The Parliamentary Budget Officer suggested that the amounts involved might range from nothing to as much as two billion dollars. Second, Senator Carignan argued that clause 5, which would require that confinement in a structured intervention unit be limited to 48 hours unless an extension were authorized by a superior court, would require new expenditures not already authorized by law. This would be because of factors such as the need to prepare for legal proceedings and to move individuals who are in custody. He also suggested that clause 11, which would allow applications for reductions in sentences on the basis of unfairness in the administration of the sentence, would incur similar expenses. The analysis by the Parliamentary Budget Officer suggests that these two latter provisions might incur expenditures that are difficult to estimate, but could be in the range of $6.8 million.

Other senators did not accept this analysis and its possible consequences. In relation to the first point, it was noted that the changes in clause 4 do not mandate expenditures, since all that is required is an authorization to transfer an individual to a hospital, not that the transfer actually occur. While there might be pressure for the allocation of additional funds to finance transfers, that would be distinct from, although consequential to, the actual requirements imposed by the bill. In relation to the second and third points, it was noted that the possible expenses related to legal proceedings are significantly less than one per cent of the total expenses of the Correctional Services of Canada. Although the report of the Parliamentary Budget Officer itself calls these the “direct cost of the bill”, it then clarifies that “this does not mean that the bill authorizes any additional spending. Rather the direct cost of the bill represents an opportunity cost — the resources which would be needed to comply with the new obligations, and which may no longer be available for other responsibilities.”

Before advancing further, I do wish to address the issue of potential cost savings that may occur if a bill is adopted, even if some of its provisions could require novel expenditures. This issue came up a number of times during consideration of the point of order. It was suggested that potential savings consequent to the adoption of Bill S-230 could allow the Senate to sidestep concerns about novel expenditures the bill might require. However, the twenty-fifth edition of Erskine May, at page 891, notes that “[c]ounter-balancing reductions in expenditures purposes provided for elsewhere in the bill are disregarded, as are statements in the explanatory notes accompanying the bill to the effect that costs will be met from within existing financial resources or that no overall increase in public expenditure is expected to result from the bill.” If some element of the bill would require novel expenditures for purposes not already authorized in law or would broaden the purpose of a previously authorized expenditure, the bill would need a Royal Recommendation, even if it would result in a net saving to the public purse.

I must also remind colleagues that in the Senate our general presumption is that a matter is in order, if a reasonable argument can be made to that effect. The argument that an item is in order need not be stronger than the counterargument, it must only be reasonable. This is a deliberate bias in favour of allowing debate to continue, if reasonably possible, so that honourable senators have the broadest latitude reasonably possible in their legislative work.

In terms of the concerns about clause 4, which deals with authorization for transfer to a hospital, a strict reading of the clause would be that it only requires authorization, not that the transfer actually occur. Senators will no doubt wish to consider carefully whether such an approach is desirable, recognizing that the provision might create pressure to incur costs that might be required to make the authorization effective. The clause does not, however, itself appear to compel expenditures for novel purposes.

In relation to the concerns about clauses 5 and 11, which deal with expenses required for possible judicial review, I would again refer to the most recent edition of Erskine May, at page 892, where it is noted that the Crown’s recommendation is not required if “proposals may have the incidental consequence of increasing the costs of the administration of justice.” In this context, incidental does not refer to a specific amount of money, but instead to whether the charge on the public purse is merely a consequence of the legislative measure affecting the range of issues with which the court must deal. As a general principle, measures that could widen the jurisdiction of a court, as well as those creating new offences, do not, therefore, require a Royal Recommendation.

Separate from this issue, in relation to clause 5, it can be noted that section 33 of the Corrections and Conditional Release Act already requires that “[a]n inmate’s confinement in a structured intervention unit is to end as soon as possible.” The proposed new wording contained in Bill S-230 can thus be reasonably understood as structuring a requirement that already exists in law, by reducing the level of discretion enjoyed by the Correctional Service of Canada.

On balance, it does thus appear that a reasonable case can be made that debate on Bill S-230 should be allowed to continue. Honourable senators will no doubt wish to reflect on the possible broader effects of the bill and the issues raised in the point of order. I wish to thank Senator Carignan for his attention to an important matter, which helped ensure a more fulsome appreciation of the possible effects of the bill.

Senate Public Bills – Third Reading

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Pate, seconded by the Honourable Senator Boehm, for the third reading of Bill S-230, An Act to amend the Corrections and Conditional Release Act.

The Honourable Senator Pate moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Moncion, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

o o o

Order No. 3 was called and postponed until the next sitting.

Commons Public Bills – Third Reading

Orders No. 1 and 2 were called and postponed until the next sitting.

Senate Public Bills – Reports of Committees

Orders No. 1 and 2 were called and postponed until the next sitting.

Commons Public Bills – Reports of Committees

Orders No. 1 and 2 were called and postponed until the next sitting.

o o o

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Boehm, seconded by the Honourable Senator Moodie, for the adoption of the fifteenth report of the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade (Bill C-282, An Act to amend the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development Act (supply management), with an amendment and observations), presented in the Senate on November 7, 2024.

After debate,

The Honourable Senator Clement moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Petitclerc, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

Senate Public Bills – Second Reading

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator McPhedran, seconded by the Honourable Senator White, for the second reading of Bill S-201, An Act to amend the Canada Elections Act and the Regulation Adapting the Canada Elections Act for the Purposes of a Referendum (voting age).

Ordered: That further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting, in the name of the Honourable Senator Martin.

o o o

Orders No. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 and 14 were called and postponed until the next sitting.

o o o

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Boisvenu, seconded by the Honourable Senator Martin, for the second reading of Bill S-265, An Act to enact the Federal Ombudsperson for Victims of Crime Act, to amend the Canadian Victims Bill of Rights and to establish a framework for implementing the rights of victims of crime.

Ordered: That further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting, in the name of the Honourable Senator Clement.

o o o

Orders No. 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 and 26 were called and postponed until the next sitting.

o o o

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Gerba, seconded by the Honourable Senator White, for the second reading of Bill S-286, An Act respecting National Immigration Month.

After debate,

The Honourable Senator Ataullahjan moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Martin, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

o o o

Order No. 28 was called and postponed until the next sitting.

o o o

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Cordy, seconded by the Honourable Senator Klyne, for the second reading of Bill S-288, An Act respecting Inherited Blood Disorders Awareness Day.

After debate,

The Honourable Senator Martin moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Seidman, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

o o o

Order No. 30 was called and postponed until the next sitting.

ADJOURNMENT

With leave of the Senate,

The Honourable Senator LaBoucane-Benson moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Moncion:

That the Senate do now adjourn.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

(Accordingly, at 3:35 p.m., the Senate was continued until tomorrow at 2 p.m.)

DOCUMENTS DEPOSITED WITH THE CLERK OF THE SENATE PURSUANT TO RULE 14-1(7)

Report of the Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2024, pursuant to the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act, S.C. 2000, c. 17, sbs. 71(1).—Sessional Paper No. 1/44-4086.

Changes in Membership of Committees Pursuant to Rule 12-5

Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Commerce and the Economy

The Honourable Senator White was added to the membership (November 20, 2024).

Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources

The Honourable Senator Cardozo replaced the Honourable Senator Fridhandler (November 20, 2024).

Standing Senate Committee on National Finance

The Honourable Senator Senior replaced the Honourable Senator Galvez (November 20, 2024).

Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament

The Honourable Senator Gerba was added to the membership (November 20, 2024).